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	<title>Comments for Rocca Gioiosa</title>
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	<description>Work, writing and life in progress at Aro Ga'dzong, 'Stronghold of Joy', Buddhist meditation &#38; vacation centre in Tuscany</description>
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		<title>Comment on May I die for you, some time. by Carlo Toscaneda</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/may-i-die-for-you-some-time/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Carlo Toscaneda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=45#comment-9</guid>
		<description>Let´s not be glib or ambitious about how we might or might not act if we found ourselves embroiled in any of the typically horrible hostile circumstances we know about in our times; tranquility in the face of death would be the accomplishment of at least a lifetime. Irony under fire does not necessarily imply humour, but a sense of ambivalence stemming from a breadth of vision, spaciousness, not utterly self-constricted due to circumstances. The demeanour of a hero acquires elegance, or you might say irony, from assuredness that we always have to die for freedom. We always have to die, and we may have a very short list of causes for which we would be prepared to die. As a tantrika there are violent circumstances when one might opt to die rather than foreswear one´s devotion. The irony in that is that, whilst this might be the end of one´s practice for that lifetime, a sacrifice of that order would empower the tradition by inspiring others thereafter. For the freedom of others we have to die to the primacy of our own selves, continually. For the freedom of realisation we have to die and take rebirth, continually, whilst all our circumstances appear and disappear in space. It is only conscious commitment to this fact - through practice - which makes it possible to identify not only a cause for which one might be willing to die, but, even more demanding, a cause for which one might be willing to take rebirth and live. In other words, without profound experience one cannot go beyond uneasiness about what it is which might this lifetime worthwhile. And that is what life is for; deciding what is worth doing, and doing it. One dare not rely, as a source of value, on the poignancy of one´s endeavour, campaign, project, cause; that would be a reference-point, and one´s legacy not go beyond propaganda. We should beware of the dark self-pity that a cause is doomed to failure and this somehow ennobles one´s self-destruction along with it. Not so much fundamentalist perhaps but more like the involution of an addict, holidaying from awareness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let´s not be glib or ambitious about how we might or might not act if we found ourselves embroiled in any of the typically horrible hostile circumstances we know about in our times; tranquility in the face of death would be the accomplishment of at least a lifetime. Irony under fire does not necessarily imply humour, but a sense of ambivalence stemming from a breadth of vision, spaciousness, not utterly self-constricted due to circumstances. The demeanour of a hero acquires elegance, or you might say irony, from assuredness that we always have to die for freedom. We always have to die, and we may have a very short list of causes for which we would be prepared to die. As a tantrika there are violent circumstances when one might opt to die rather than foreswear one´s devotion. The irony in that is that, whilst this might be the end of one´s practice for that lifetime, a sacrifice of that order would empower the tradition by inspiring others thereafter. For the freedom of others we have to die to the primacy of our own selves, continually. For the freedom of realisation we have to die and take rebirth, continually, whilst all our circumstances appear and disappear in space. It is only conscious commitment to this fact &#8211; through practice &#8211; which makes it possible to identify not only a cause for which one might be willing to die, but, even more demanding, a cause for which one might be willing to take rebirth and live. In other words, without profound experience one cannot go beyond uneasiness about what it is which might this lifetime worthwhile. And that is what life is for; deciding what is worth doing, and doing it. One dare not rely, as a source of value, on the poignancy of one´s endeavour, campaign, project, cause; that would be a reference-point, and one´s legacy not go beyond propaganda. We should beware of the dark self-pity that a cause is doomed to failure and this somehow ennobles one´s self-destruction along with it. Not so much fundamentalist perhaps but more like the involution of an addict, holidaying from awareness.</p>
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		<title>Comment on May I die for you, some time. by tromtsal</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/may-i-die-for-you-some-time/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>tromtsal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=45#comment-8</guid>
		<description>After reading this post, I wondered if I could be able to appreciate the fight for freedom possibly unto death as poignant and ironic if I ever was to be, so to say, in the thick of it all myself?
Could I afford irony when being faced with the prospect of potentially having to die for freedom? 
Or would I have to be utterly determined - and thus, dead-serious - about the whole thing just to be able to muster the courage do it?
 
In other words, would I have to suppress the poignancy and the irony to convince myself?

Then I thought about this a bit more and it actually turned into a question with a wider scope of application.
Could this be seen as a dividing line between fundamentalism and commitment that is not fundamentalism? The presence or absence of the sense of poignancy and irony? 
If in the act of fighting a war, of defending a religion or a set of beliefs I could appreciate the poignancy of the endeavor, it would not be a fundamentalist stance. 
And if that poignancy wasn&#039;t there, if it was suppressed, it would be fundamentalist.

Does this make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading this post, I wondered if I could be able to appreciate the fight for freedom possibly unto death as poignant and ironic if I ever was to be, so to say, in the thick of it all myself?<br />
Could I afford irony when being faced with the prospect of potentially having to die for freedom?<br />
Or would I have to be utterly determined &#8211; and thus, dead-serious &#8211; about the whole thing just to be able to muster the courage do it?</p>
<p>In other words, would I have to suppress the poignancy and the irony to convince myself?</p>
<p>Then I thought about this a bit more and it actually turned into a question with a wider scope of application.<br />
Could this be seen as a dividing line between fundamentalism and commitment that is not fundamentalism? The presence or absence of the sense of poignancy and irony?<br />
If in the act of fighting a war, of defending a religion or a set of beliefs I could appreciate the poignancy of the endeavor, it would not be a fundamentalist stance.<br />
And if that poignancy wasn&#8217;t there, if it was suppressed, it would be fundamentalist.</p>
<p>Does this make sense?</p>
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		<title>Comment on &#8216;Buddhism as religion, philosophy and way of life.&#8217; by moeflon</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/buddhism-as-religion-philosophy-and-way-of-life/#comment-7</link>
		<dc:creator>moeflon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:10:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=44#comment-7</guid>
		<description>I like the way body, speech and mind are put forth as the three gates. The three modes of entry, or the three sluices - where it becomes unclear what is entering into what, depending on the difference of level (of what?). Who can measure this pouring of water into water, or of space into space? My guess: no cups required.

It sounds right to say that the heart must be linked to the gate of speech, voice, or song. It is the gate of the blues perhaps, the raw outflow of that what is undigestable by itself, unless shared. In Dutch we have a saying which translates as &quot;carrying one&#039;s heart on the tongue&quot; which pertains to people who refrain from filtering their speech for want of political correctness. They will say it, as it is! Or, more accurately, as they perceive it, which isn&#039;t usually the same thing. Whereas an urge for honesty may be commendable, an unimpeded flow of opinionated bile is nothing less than nauseating. The difference between the two, I would wager, is the measure of culture. Or sophisitication. Or art...isn&#039;t it the privilige of the most elevated of singers to sing it AS IT IS? Isn&#039;t it this understanding, which, so often brinking on destruction, which is so highly revered in the history of pop-culture? Singing it as it is, but burning for it a breathtaking rate... Is every rock star a bodhisattva? I hope not, although I have a weak spot for Meatloaf. 
What a relief to envision the Buddha as a blues singer, crooning and wailing, coaxing and cajoling us to join in the chorus praising the infinite purity of the phenomenal world!
Open the gates...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the way body, speech and mind are put forth as the three gates. The three modes of entry, or the three sluices &#8211; where it becomes unclear what is entering into what, depending on the difference of level (of what?). Who can measure this pouring of water into water, or of space into space? My guess: no cups required.</p>
<p>It sounds right to say that the heart must be linked to the gate of speech, voice, or song. It is the gate of the blues perhaps, the raw outflow of that what is undigestable by itself, unless shared. In Dutch we have a saying which translates as &#8220;carrying one&#8217;s heart on the tongue&#8221; which pertains to people who refrain from filtering their speech for want of political correctness. They will say it, as it is! Or, more accurately, as they perceive it, which isn&#8217;t usually the same thing. Whereas an urge for honesty may be commendable, an unimpeded flow of opinionated bile is nothing less than nauseating. The difference between the two, I would wager, is the measure of culture. Or sophisitication. Or art&#8230;isn&#8217;t it the privilige of the most elevated of singers to sing it AS IT IS? Isn&#8217;t it this understanding, which, so often brinking on destruction, which is so highly revered in the history of pop-culture? Singing it as it is, but burning for it a breathtaking rate&#8230; Is every rock star a bodhisattva? I hope not, although I have a weak spot for Meatloaf.<br />
What a relief to envision the Buddha as a blues singer, crooning and wailing, coaxing and cajoling us to join in the chorus praising the infinite purity of the phenomenal world!<br />
Open the gates&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Where does the dust go? by rocca</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/where-does-he-tdust-go/#comment-6</link>
		<dc:creator>rocca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=17#comment-6</guid>
		<description>Buddhist meditation practice is meant to supply the answer to the question, &#039;where does consciousness come from?&#039;. From Dzogchen view one would say that being confident in this answer means one has accomplished the foundation practice. Prior to that however, the path is not supposed to be actually tortuous, in the manner of either of your cultural polarities. The karma of agonising involution cannot possibly deliver the result, effortless ecstatic inherence! 

&#039;Asking is the devotion of thought&#039; sounds like the endless self-imposed agony the Buddha personally and the whole Vajrayana tradition warns against: making conceptuality one&#039;s cognitive tool in realms beyond its capability. Not that this is obliged to be frustrating. In emptiness, clarity and confidence are the extinction of asking. This is the plateau from which mountains of visionary experience begin to rise up. Theistical culture, however, asserts that authentic visionary experience has its source outside the universe. There is no analogy to Buddhism, a natural transition from philosophy to envisionment. Hereby hangs the uneasy story of the intellect in western culture.

The other &#039;pole of heroism&#039; is a mirror image. Doggedly demanding &#039;somehow on&#039; suppresses the urge to pause, to relax, to think, to ask. The two acts of &#039;Waiting for Godot&#039; were once famously reviewed (by Vivian Mercier) as &#039;nothing happens, twice.&#039; Beckett&#039;s two protagonists spend a long time mooching about under a tree, but without any conclusion about nothingness akin to the Buddha&#039;s. In the last lines of the play they finally decide to go; but they do not move. The curtain could rise again after it has fallen at the end of &#039;Waiting for Godot&#039;, and the two tramps would still be there, waiting for some deus ex machina like they were at the beginning. 

Emptiness leads to compassionate activity. But a temporarily exhausted non-conceptual state can only give birth to apathy - or theism. When it gets its energy back there is a second act, and then the curtain keeps rising again and again on the same stuck scene, the whole theatrical run of samsara. 

Emptiness is one-pointed and open in all directions. One cannot be &#039;torn&#039; in emptiness. It is, as you say, both mighty and refined. In the face of oscillating dualism, the cluelessness you mention is itself the greatest clue how to proceed beyond the suspicion of being stuck. Cluelessness, as often in the training of the Mahasiddhas, is intelligent. Buddhism seems to be the only tradition which finds inspiration in such an unlikely, overlooked, neglected phase of human experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buddhist meditation practice is meant to supply the answer to the question, &#8216;where does consciousness come from?&#8217;. From Dzogchen view one would say that being confident in this answer means one has accomplished the foundation practice. Prior to that however, the path is not supposed to be actually tortuous, in the manner of either of your cultural polarities. The karma of agonising involution cannot possibly deliver the result, effortless ecstatic inherence! </p>
<p>&#8216;Asking is the devotion of thought&#8217; sounds like the endless self-imposed agony the Buddha personally and the whole Vajrayana tradition warns against: making conceptuality one&#8217;s cognitive tool in realms beyond its capability. Not that this is obliged to be frustrating. In emptiness, clarity and confidence are the extinction of asking. This is the plateau from which mountains of visionary experience begin to rise up. Theistical culture, however, asserts that authentic visionary experience has its source outside the universe. There is no analogy to Buddhism, a natural transition from philosophy to envisionment. Hereby hangs the uneasy story of the intellect in western culture.</p>
<p>The other &#8216;pole of heroism&#8217; is a mirror image. Doggedly demanding &#8217;somehow on&#8217; suppresses the urge to pause, to relax, to think, to ask. The two acts of &#8216;Waiting for Godot&#8217; were once famously reviewed (by Vivian Mercier) as &#8216;nothing happens, twice.&#8217; Beckett&#8217;s two protagonists spend a long time mooching about under a tree, but without any conclusion about nothingness akin to the Buddha&#8217;s. In the last lines of the play they finally decide to go; but they do not move. The curtain could rise again after it has fallen at the end of &#8216;Waiting for Godot&#8217;, and the two tramps would still be there, waiting for some deus ex machina like they were at the beginning. </p>
<p>Emptiness leads to compassionate activity. But a temporarily exhausted non-conceptual state can only give birth to apathy &#8211; or theism. When it gets its energy back there is a second act, and then the curtain keeps rising again and again on the same stuck scene, the whole theatrical run of samsara. </p>
<p>Emptiness is one-pointed and open in all directions. One cannot be &#8216;torn&#8217; in emptiness. It is, as you say, both mighty and refined. In the face of oscillating dualism, the cluelessness you mention is itself the greatest clue how to proceed beyond the suspicion of being stuck. Cluelessness, as often in the training of the Mahasiddhas, is intelligent. Buddhism seems to be the only tradition which finds inspiration in such an unlikely, overlooked, neglected phase of human experience.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Where does the dust go? by moeflon</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/where-does-he-tdust-go/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>moeflon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=17#comment-5</guid>
		<description>Reflecting on the closing question, &#039;where does consciousness come from?&#039;, I am torn between two heroes from my reading age (which is still raging, but more buddhistically nowadays): Heidegger and Beckett. The former dubbed the formidable &#039;Asking is the devotion of thought&#039; whereas the second was the weariest of wayfarers in answering &#039;on, say on, for be said on. somehow on. until nohow on. said, nohow on&#039;.
Torn in emptiness I stand, clueless whom of the two follow and grant the points of the Dutch jury. Whereas at one point this seemed a great defeat to me, like joining the conceptual bandwagon, I am now tempted to rate this not knowing &#039;non-dual&#039;, or, &#039;choiceless&#039;. Both of which are nauseatingly vague from the conceptual viewpoint, but nonetheless befit a definite and precise experience. Whereever this consciousness of ours is coming from, it&#039;s a mighty fine no-thing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reflecting on the closing question, &#8216;where does consciousness come from?&#8217;, I am torn between two heroes from my reading age (which is still raging, but more buddhistically nowadays): Heidegger and Beckett. The former dubbed the formidable &#8216;Asking is the devotion of thought&#8217; whereas the second was the weariest of wayfarers in answering &#8216;on, say on, for be said on. somehow on. until nohow on. said, nohow on&#8217;.<br />
Torn in emptiness I stand, clueless whom of the two follow and grant the points of the Dutch jury. Whereas at one point this seemed a great defeat to me, like joining the conceptual bandwagon, I am now tempted to rate this not knowing &#8216;non-dual&#8217;, or, &#8216;choiceless&#8217;. Both of which are nauseatingly vague from the conceptual viewpoint, but nonetheless befit a definite and precise experience. Whereever this consciousness of ours is coming from, it&#8217;s a mighty fine no-thing!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Where does the dust go? by rocca</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/where-does-he-tdust-go/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>rocca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=17#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Samiy, thank you for this open-hearted account. Where the scene opens on your experience, it reads as truly harrowing.  How you got into such a state must be a long back-story. But that terrible interlude in your life was not wasted. Far from it. You tapped into a vein of profound intelligence, when you recognised that waking up is always going to recur. And you were right about the reason for that, which is that awareness itself is undying. It was your own nature of mind which informed you about that, and you had the strength of character not to suppress it. That resurgence of strong-mindedness eventually got you out of  bed and out of depression again. 

You are right, waking up after killing yourself could be painful. The state of mind with which we wake up after death is strongly influenced by the previous state of mind. All religions recognise this, and hence emphasise e.g. deathbed confession and repentance. Vajrayana teachings say that in the bardo between lives we remember our previous lives the way we remember yesterday. &#039;Yesterday... hmm... what was I doing yesterday?&#039; The memory is quickly forgotten because it has become too vague, disjointed and meaningless. It is just like the compacted residue of several different dreams of the night before. That is why it is hard to grasp or reconstruct, or to find an authentic basis for moving on from the place we now find ourselves, unless we used to have strong motivation to spend every day cultivating awareness - i.e through practicing. 

If one were to wake up with a hellishly miserable frame of mind and no way of understanding where that came from any more, that would seriously prejudice one&#039;s chances of a successful passage through the bardo of visions.

Waking up has always been an analogy for realisation, which is why the Buddha described himself as &#039;the one who has woken up&#039; (which is what bodhi implies). A characteristic of awakened mind is recognising that, if this is wakefulness, all that other lifetime was spent in a state which was not awake; other people all around are living like that right now and the impulse is to go right ahead and wake them up, explain to them what they&#039;re missing. This was how the Buddha talked to his former meditation companions when he met up with them after leaving the site of the bodhi tree, and one by one they woke up in the light of his explanations.

Yours would make a fine teaching story one day. Meanwhile it is a fine story of how someone came to see the value - and the sense - in being a practitioner.

Lechayim!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samiy, thank you for this open-hearted account. Where the scene opens on your experience, it reads as truly harrowing.  How you got into such a state must be a long back-story. But that terrible interlude in your life was not wasted. Far from it. You tapped into a vein of profound intelligence, when you recognised that waking up is always going to recur. And you were right about the reason for that, which is that awareness itself is undying. It was your own nature of mind which informed you about that, and you had the strength of character not to suppress it. That resurgence of strong-mindedness eventually got you out of  bed and out of depression again. </p>
<p>You are right, waking up after killing yourself could be painful. The state of mind with which we wake up after death is strongly influenced by the previous state of mind. All religions recognise this, and hence emphasise e.g. deathbed confession and repentance. Vajrayana teachings say that in the bardo between lives we remember our previous lives the way we remember yesterday. &#8216;Yesterday&#8230; hmm&#8230; what was I doing yesterday?&#8217; The memory is quickly forgotten because it has become too vague, disjointed and meaningless. It is just like the compacted residue of several different dreams of the night before. That is why it is hard to grasp or reconstruct, or to find an authentic basis for moving on from the place we now find ourselves, unless we used to have strong motivation to spend every day cultivating awareness &#8211; i.e through practicing. </p>
<p>If one were to wake up with a hellishly miserable frame of mind and no way of understanding where that came from any more, that would seriously prejudice one&#8217;s chances of a successful passage through the bardo of visions.</p>
<p>Waking up has always been an analogy for realisation, which is why the Buddha described himself as &#8216;the one who has woken up&#8217; (which is what bodhi implies). A characteristic of awakened mind is recognising that, if this is wakefulness, all that other lifetime was spent in a state which was not awake; other people all around are living like that right now and the impulse is to go right ahead and wake them up, explain to them what they&#8217;re missing. This was how the Buddha talked to his former meditation companions when he met up with them after leaving the site of the bodhi tree, and one by one they woke up in the light of his explanations.</p>
<p>Yours would make a fine teaching story one day. Meanwhile it is a fine story of how someone came to see the value &#8211; and the sense &#8211; in being a practitioner.</p>
<p>Lechayim!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Where does the dust go? by samiy</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/where-does-he-tdust-go/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>samiy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/?p=17#comment-3</guid>
		<description>I never really bothered with the logic of it, It&#039;s merely my experience from my early teens when I sincerely wanted top my self; I sincerely wanted to completely cease existing, so I tried. I guess you could say it was both a success and a failure. I would completely give up. I would go to bed with the motivation that I would never wake up again, sooner or later I&#039;d loose awareness, but I always, always wake up again. I&#039;d try to lay still and not engage with anything for as long as I could, but despite my self I&#039;d get up to eat, piss defecate, and so on... I can&#039;t really remember if this period lasted weeks, months or years, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it wasn&#039;t actually possible to stop or kill awareness, or as I thought of it at the time, stop experience, sooner or later experience would always resurface. And I thought it better to attempt to live in the world I was in instead of killing my self, as I would not know if it would actually improve the situation, most likely I thought that rejecting the life I had could only make it worse. If I kill my self and do wake up what then, has anything really improved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never really bothered with the logic of it, It&#8217;s merely my experience from my early teens when I sincerely wanted top my self; I sincerely wanted to completely cease existing, so I tried. I guess you could say it was both a success and a failure. I would completely give up. I would go to bed with the motivation that I would never wake up again, sooner or later I&#8217;d loose awareness, but I always, always wake up again. I&#8217;d try to lay still and not engage with anything for as long as I could, but despite my self I&#8217;d get up to eat, piss defecate, and so on&#8230; I can&#8217;t really remember if this period lasted weeks, months or years, but I eventually came to the conclusion that it wasn&#8217;t actually possible to stop or kill awareness, or as I thought of it at the time, stop experience, sooner or later experience would always resurface. And I thought it better to attempt to live in the world I was in instead of killing my self, as I would not know if it would actually improve the situation, most likely I thought that rejecting the life I had could only make it worse. If I kill my self and do wake up what then, has anything really improved.</p>
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		<title>Comment on bLogs (Tib.): clear mind, lend an ear by moeflon</title>
		<link>http://roccagioiosa.wordpress.com/2008/03/07/blogs/#comment-2</link>
		<dc:creator>moeflon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-2</guid>
		<description>may the ears drum loud
and fearlessly proud
as lions</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>may the ears drum loud<br />
and fearlessly proud<br />
as lions</p>
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